w220
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5120 vs 5140
Sep 05, 2023,23:26 PM
I don’t have access to minute repeaters or tourbillons, but did a comparison of a calatrava and a perpetual calendar some time back.
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When did Patek finish quality change? Moderator Edit: It hasn't changed.
By: m2 : August 27th, 2023-05:17
There are lots of posts here showing machining marks etc visible on Patek's anglage. Obviously producing at their scale and hiring the people needed is not viable. But when did the brand loosen standards around finishing? If I pulled something from say th...
I've been hoping to see PP do that same thing
By: blau : August 27th, 2023-12:12
A series of simple, extra fantastically finished time only watches. You know they've got the capability! And the watch market has the interest, I think.
Employee retention might be PP's problem too.
By: enjoythemusic : August 27th, 2023-12:38
Seems many of the very best watchmakers are smartly creating their own timepieces, or working together with true independent visionaries. Of course we can always hope that Patek... it's really up to the Kid Stern me thinks. As always, jmho.
Yes, points well made. Thank you.
By: enjoythemusic : August 28th, 2023-08:33
Guess it mainly comes down to seeing what appears to be better craftsmanship techniques and very interesting complications, even for basic time-only pieces, elsewhere (imho of course). Hopefully, PP's Conneseur Series will be able to truly extend their cr...
Patek approaches from a conservative angle.
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-16:38
Probably arguably a too-safe angle. Breguet actually takes more risks sometimes than Patek Philippe - a lot of silicon parts in Breguet at all price levels. Also, Breguet has put in a lot of state-of-the-art new technology into their very classic watches ...
Finishing is a more recent phenomenon. Cozmopak is quite right.
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-16:48
Finishing is an old game, an old sport, and not a challenge. Finishing doesn't require big expensive R&D departments. To create an exquisite finish doesn't even require a super difficult skill - I've sat there finishing watches before. I could get good at...
Absolutely
By: Cozmopak : August 28th, 2023-16:58
I always thought of Patek as a complications master. Finishing is one of the least important features of their watches to my eyes. This obsession with high quality finishing that permeates the watch community is simply boring in my opinion. That's not to ...
Indeed!
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-17:01
Finishing is not a low priority at Patek Philippe, but it's old news - not a challenge. It's like the sushi master who knows every day he's going to have to beat and tenderize the octopus with his own hands. It's a skill, but it's something he does every ...
Yup!
By: patrick_y : August 31st, 2023-14:55
And to me finishing was a major differentiator when I was a starting watch collector. Like wine, what separates expensive wine from less expensive wine is usually the amount of new wood barrels used. Finishing is a major differentiator and it does set the...
Not so much for Patek
By: Cozmopak : September 5th, 2023-13:30
There really is very little correlation with finishing quality and price when it comes to Patek watches. Most serious Patek collectors are collecting the brand’s watches for their historical significance. There is a stronger correlation between price and ...
Great point on early vintage references.
By: enjoythemusic : September 5th, 2023-18:59
Pre-1975 PPs are interesting. Agreed. Now imagine being there at the earliest of years, this may be why many of today's true independents are desirable. Only a handful of examples are produced annually too. As best I can tell, none are doing 5,000 qty a y...
And lastly, Patek Philippe finishing doesn't change!
By: patrick_y : September 5th, 2023-19:04
Patek Philippe watches are all finished to the same level. Yes, some more expensive models may have more interior angles. But that's not a "finishing quality" argument. That's an architectural argument. The fact is that Patek Philippe many decades ago use...
Patek Philippe is definitely capable of a lot!
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-16:43
Breguet re-created Marie Antoinette's watch. Think of the man hours and the costs associated to only make one of those and it isn't even for sale. So anything with a lot of drive and passion can be done. Patek Philippe also has a more profit-oriented edge...
I would disagree here... More clarification needed.
By: patrick_y : August 27th, 2023-22:56
There is some confusion here as to how to define finishing. More expensive Patek Philippe models aren't generally finished to a higher standard than normal Patek Philippe models. BUT! More expensive Patek Philippe models do have more components and more i...
Are all modern pateks finished to the same grade?
By: Henke : August 29th, 2023-05:04
To my untrained eye, this doesn't seem so. The anglage on something like a minute repeater seems much wider and rounder than on something like a 6119. Likewise, I'm not sure if the lack of interior angle is due to engineering constraints or lack of parts ...
Generally YES!
By: patrick_y : August 29th, 2023-06:19
As mentioned above. Generally YES. They don't take shortcuts on the cheaper models in terms of finishing. More expensive models (generally around 90,000 Swiss francs and up) do undergo double assembly though. When normal and petit complication models gene...
I've addressed this in previous posts.
By: patrick_y : September 5th, 2023-22:11
This is an architectural and stylistic choice. It's not a question of which one has a better finish. Yes, the more expensive watch has more difficult bridges to decorate from an architectural standpoint. It's like if I build a custom home. I may build a 6...
Not on me.
By: patrick_y : August 27th, 2023-19:46
But you can clearly see the photo I put in at the top page, a photo that belongs to W220 already has chatter marks. And this is a Geneva Seal movement. I can assure you that the new Patek Philippe Seal movements have the same chatter marks. And they are n...
Now we're on a witch-hunt... But, it's a fair question!
By: patrick_y : August 27th, 2023-20:49
Your post said 1990s in your original post. Now you're changing the timeline! But okay, fair question. The Patek Philippe 240 caliber debuted back in the late 1970s (around 1977, and funny thing, the movements didn't really wind well back then, even now t...
winding
By: wellingtoncromwell : August 28th, 2023-04:31
my understanding regarding the winding is that it is an issue with all micro rotor movements winding less efficiently compared to full rotor movements and not an issue with 240 specifically
Correct! Almost all micro rotors have problems.
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-07:59
The 240 calibers don't wind perfectly. Even ones sold today are not consistent- they have their good days and they have their bad days. But this is not unique to the 240 caliber. Overall, amongst micro rotors, the 240 caliber is actually one of the better...
I encourage you to do your own research...
By: patrick_y : August 27th, 2023-20:56
We're starting to become on a witch hunt to identify how the big brands on the top cut corners, and I'm trying to get away from this witch-hunt mentality. And I think that's not fair - because in a witch hunt we always find a witch - even if there isn't o...
I'm not making any complaints here at all!
By: blau : August 28th, 2023-00:39
You said, "Patek Philippe quality overall can be argued has changed for the worse. BUT, it's definitely not for the reasons mentioned by any of the posters above." And I was asking to what you were referring in that statement. Thank you for explaining.
You're most welcome!
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-01:16
And totally understand that you're not making any complaints! It was a fair question, which is why I answered it. It's just this whole thread started from an incorrect assumption that specifically said anglage has worsened from the 1990s and when that arg...
design for manufacturing
By: wellingtoncromwell : August 28th, 2023-04:37
when I was at Nike, there was a process called design for manufacturing. This is when the designer's (an industrial designer/artist) drawings and specifications get modified by an industrial engineer (an engineer) to make shoes easier to manufacture in an...
Awesome story! Yup! That happens!
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-07:44
I've heard from car designers who told me about this... They were the designer of the beautiful parts; but then the engineers had to make the car meet global requirements, then the car needs to be easily assembled and more cut lines get drawn, then the ca...
german silver
By: wellingtoncromwell : August 28th, 2023-04:43
i have read that german silver is delicate and can discolor with finger oils and is softer. thats why lange watchmakers wear those little finger glove things. but i never connected that it makes lange movements easier to finish. does it affect movement du...
No. All of these materials are fine.
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-07:39
The main technical reason why companies use brass, German silver, or 18K gold is one reason and one reason only. Machinability; all these materials are machinable using modern CNC tools. And Secondly, these materials are not magnetic. Meaning these materi...
I will say, Patek Philippe Annual Calendars are very unreliable.
By: patrick_y : August 27th, 2023-23:06
I'd say I've seen several annual calendars suffer problems in the first year of ownership. Date change doesn't work properly. Funny thing, the date change will work correctly if you advance the time by the crown, but it won't work if the watch is on a win...
Here's my dream if I win Powerball...
By: mdg : August 27th, 2023-20:08
...buy whatever PP watch I like, simple or complicated. Ship it to someone like Rexhep or Dufour and have them tear it down, re-finish it, and put it together again. It would make a $100k watch cost $200k or $300k but it would be worth it : )
I love independents...
By: mdg : August 27th, 2023-21:09
...so yes, just buying one would be the right move. I'm talking about things like a vintage 3940 or the like. Of course, one would have to be very wealthy because it would be a rather silly thing to do : )
I've had a similar idea!
By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : August 27th, 2023-23:21
Here is a sillier one that I am planning to someday do: Take a watch I like. Such as the Rolex 1908 and have a watchmaker I know give the movement some hand finishing. Just something I'll enjoy, obviously silly. Will be fun someday in the next 10 years or...
Rexhep or Dufour might not like your idea at all!
By: patrick_y : August 27th, 2023-23:03
If we think from their perspective... Why would they want to better someone else's work and not have any credit - the name on the dial isn't going to change to their name. Still - I get where you're coming from. It's not a bad pipe dream!
Hard to say... You could be right...
By: patrick_y : August 28th, 2023-01:21
I don't know neither of them well enough to say if this would or would not work. Dufour and I haven't communicated very much. And Rexhep and I have only met a few times but I've only really spoken to him over one luncheon. But if they're gentlemen, they'd...
thank you
By: wellingtoncromwell : August 28th, 2023-02:49
for your series of illuminating posts in this thread
Oooh niiiiice, Powerball dreams...
By: enjoythemusic : August 28th, 2023-09:05
Love the idea, tho would skip PP and go right to the very best watchmakers. Another idea that's been in the back of my mind, a $500k 'challenge' where each gets $500k to four or five independents to see what they create. Roger Smith MB&F Rexhep Rexhepi Ph...
Yes sir 😎
By: enjoythemusic : August 28th, 2023-16:03
I personally feel ALS finishing is better than PP
By: mj23 : August 28th, 2023-20:10
Based on what I can see. Especially PP finishing gets better as prices go up. ALS is much more consistent regardless of pricing. Also I don’t think both materials really matter. We are not comparing with Titanium which is much harder to finish than brass ...
Walt
By: Wowbattle2 : August 30th, 2023-05:15
Walt odets has said that the dial side finishing of Lange movements does not match the case back side finishing. This approach doesn’t feel as authentic to me because a true craftsman (think Japanese sword makers) would do their best work even on the comp...
That's partially true.
By: patrick_y : September 5th, 2023-18:58
That was true a long time ago. Lange cut some corners a long time ago by not finishing parts you couldn't see or sides of parts you couldn't see. Today, Lange will finish everything to a very high standard, including the parts you don't see.
First, thank you for your participation Mj23!
By: patrick_y : September 5th, 2023-18:57
PP finishing does not get better as prices go up, to say that is oversimplifying and taking out of context. Here on WPS, we have a higher standard. Shooting from the hip with assumptions and presumptions based on gut feeling and not on fact is very common...
Thanks for the response and your view
By: mj23 : September 5th, 2023-21:50
I commented on the PP finishing with relation to prices based on photos I see. Not just hearsay or gut feelings. I think a post with photos a few mins ago also can demonstrate that pretty clearly.
I will use ALS anglage as an example to demonstrate the point.
By: mj23 : September 5th, 2023-22:41
If you look at the anglage quality from low to high price ALS models, you can see much more consistency than PP using those PP photos as comparison. The difference for ALS is much smaller than PP. And for higher price ALS, you can get inward angles while ...
You said you changed your stance but...
By: BigFatPauli : September 5th, 2023-22:47
Then went on about justifying your original stance. I am not talking about the wheels or bridges.... I was very clear in asking if you could see a difference in the CHAMFERS on plates/bridges. This isn't about "more" of anything. A chamfer is a chamfer. C...
This is really getting out of context. This is the official statement.
By: patrick_y : September 6th, 2023-07:57
The facts of the matter are; the original post was about Patek's finishing today vs 1990s. The original poster alluded, insinuated, and implied that Patek Philippe watches from the 1990s are better than more recent ones. This is - from a general sense - u...
Posting locked
By: patrick_y : September 6th, 2023-08:17
Dear BigFatPauli: I really appreciate your enthusiasm for this subject. Truly do. This conversation has swayed so much from the original poster's original thread starting topic. And things are just getting too complex. And now the conversation has started...
5120 vs 5140
By: w220 : September 5th, 2023-23:26
I don’t have access to minute repeaters or tourbillons, but did a comparison of a calatrava and a perpetual calendar some time back. This post:
also in terms of the materials used..It's not about hearsay either.
By: mj23 : September 5th, 2023-22:32
brass and german silver are very commonly used by different brands. To say PP finishing is less than Lange due to brass used by is harder to finish is what is out of context. Level of efforts and expertise for example need to factored in as well...based o...
100%
By: m2 : August 29th, 2023-13:28
Again, a 100% agreement based on hearsay is not admissible in court.
By: patrick_y : September 5th, 2023-19:01
Let's hold ourselves to a higher standard here and promote factual knowledge rather than reinforcing our own presumptions. First thing we need to do is acknowledge whether or not we are an "expert witness." Today, would a courthouse and both opposing coun...