It embodies the values and standards of our family watch company!

Oct 25, 2009,09:18 AM
 

"It embodies the values and standards of our family watch company". You may have already read this sentence that is the introduction to the Patek Philippe Seal launched this year.

 

Now that the passion seen at the launch of this Patek Philippe Seal is quietly getting softer, I think it's time for me to try to explain why it is in my opinion a good move operated by Patek Philippe and a quite possible and probable positive outcome for the owners and collectors of those watches we love.

 

I want to immediately take into account, accept and also soften the too often expressed by some accusation of sin of arrogance by Patek Philippe that this new Seal initiated. Patek Philippe has as far as I know never criticized its competitors, neither rejected or denied the importance of the Geneva Seal for Patek Philippe and in general.

 



The man with a golden rotor

 

As I see it Patek Philippe's wish with this Seal is only to formalize, make its manufacture and "bienfacture"s heritage secure, while keeping its innovative spirit in the balance. It's certainly hard to talk of his own work, to explain his own worry of excellence in all quality aspects, without appearing arrogant to those who don't want to recognize or even admit the work done and level reached.

 



Modern work for traditional decoration

 

Some may want to share their own experience of quality problems to counter the content of the Seal, but the Seal takes into account problems of reliability  that watches can encounter, or needs of servicing. The Seal doesn't state that Patek Philippe's watches are perfect as nothing is perfect. Perfection is a goal and the Seal is a mean to reach a more advanced stage towards perfection.  Please remember Henry Royce's saying: "perfection is made of small things but perfection is no small thing!"

 

But let's try to see deeper in the content of this Seal and specially see what its commitments are.

 



Hand angled

 

All Geneva Seal's fans can take a rest! The Geneva Seal requirements deal strictly and only with calibre's aspects. You may have read already the 12 Geneva Seal requirements you can find in some older Patek Philippe "Prestige" catalogs. By the way did you notice that the Patek Philippe catalogs don't mention the Geneva Seal anymore since the  2007/2008 catalog issued in 2007? So this year's catalog is the third that does not mention anymore the Geneva Seal. Did you notice a lesser level of finish in the watches issued at the same time? No dare I answer.

 



Wooden polish

 

In fact the Patek Philippe Seal requirements regarding the calibre finish are in my opinion stricter than the Geneva seal requirements. Half of the twelve Geneva Seal requirements, i.e. the first six requirements, those in my opinion more linked to the "perceived" finish (even if they of course have also technical reasons) and the regulation can be found nearly literally back in the Patek Philippe Seal, as it is shown in the little book Patek Philippe has issued to present the Patek Philippe Seal.

 



This one is cnc free

 

The last six requirements of the Geneva Seal are the more purely technical ones (less related to visual finish) and those linked to the shock resistance. They are to some extent now so commonly spread in the Swiss watchmaking industry that three of them (points 8, 9 and 10) may well be nearly universally respected in swiss calibres (ETA calibres included). The point 7 may well be too largely respected ("pinion shanks and faces must be polished").

 



Hand finished again

 

Point 12 forbids wire springs and as springs are easily visible on a calibre I guess that you can be assured that Patek Philippe springs will remain what they have always been, also for aesthetical reasons. If you find a wire spring in a Patek Philippe calibre call me anytime!

 

Let's finish with point 11! The little Patek Philippe Seal book also states that the ratchet and transmission wheels must be finished with care, while the Geneva Seal states that they must be finished "in conformity with prescribed models".  Is that a different shade of quality?

 



Decoration is not all

 

You may want to have a look at the "movement" section of the "Patek Philippe Seal" section of the Patek Philippe website to see by yourselves the confirmation of what I wrote just before about the first six points of the Geneva Seal, as the websites shows the same texts and pictures as the one of the Patek Philippe Seal book.

 



Geneva Seal decoration

 

Then if we can conclude that the Patek Philippe Seal is in no way less strict than the Geneva Seal regarding the calibre finish and technical aspects, can we consider that everything else contained in the Patek Philippe Seal is added as the Geneva Seal is strictly limited to these 12 calibre points?

 



You didn't know it was from the 70s

 

Don't worry about the picture above, Patek Philippe is not going to innovate with flashy bracelets. The colours are just the colours of the tape applied on the brushed parts of the Nautilus bracelet to end the polishing of the polished ones.

 



My favourite watch case

 

The first novelty of the Patek Philippe Seal is the fact that it is not limited to the watch calibre but looks at the entire watch (the calibre, but also the case in and out, the glass, the dial and hands, the crown(s) and pushers, the strap or bracelet). Also it is not limited to the watch but also to the services linked to the watch and particularly the servicing.

 



From the smallest to the largest

 

When saying the "entire watch" that means also that Patek Philippe has formalized principles that influence the creation and development of a new watch. It must take into account the tradition of Patek Philippe, the best tradition of watchmaking and the spirit of innovation of the company.

 



Lifetime service

 

The rate accuracy is another aspect of the Patek Philippe Seal. You may remember that in 1997 the COSC and the Geneva Seal board created a common certificate for some Patek Philippe watches created to celebrate the opening of the new (and current) Patek Philippe manufacture. Those watches were the ref 5500 Pagoda fitted with calibre 215PS and the ref 5029 fitted with calibre R27PS, a minute repeater in an officer case. This certificate's requirements were just that the watch calibre was compliant with the Geneva Seal requirements and that it was respecting the standard COSC requirements. All tourbillon Patek Philippe watches have also since that time been delivered with a COSC certificate and I've not been able to check if that was already the case or not before 1997.

 



Unfinished

 

The new Patek Philipe Seal has even more stringent requirements than the COSC. When the COSC daily tolerance is -4 +6 the PP Seal accepts -3 + 2 for calibres above 20mm of diameter (-5 +4 for calibres below 20 MM of diameter). The Patek Philippe Seal also tolerates only -2 +1 variations for tourbillon watches!

 Isn't that an obvious improvement, or at least a precious commitment?



On its way

 

I should add that the Patek Philippe watches must pass the test fully assembled, while the COSC requirements apply as you may know only to calibres before assembly.

 



Impressive thickness

 

In fact what we must understand about this Patek Philippe Seal is that it is aimed at perpetuating the best of Patek Philippe, the spirit of the glorious company. How many watch companies have lost their soul due to marketing erring ways? How many watch companies have lost their soul while diluting their qualities to follow trends and profit from them?

 



Calibre 89

 

At a time when Mr Philippe Stern is transmitting the helm of the family company to his son Thierry, isn't it a wise move to state what the strengths and virtues of Patek Philippe are, to in some way write them in the marble?

 



How many axis ?

 

Patek Philippe has already proved with the Advanced Research series that it can be at the forefront of the innovation while keeping its core values and avoiding passing trends. Innovation leads to progress only if it's useful. Difference is in no way innovation in itself. A Calatrava 5196 is not really different from a reference 96, except that it is more reliable, more precise, and has progressively got larger to answer the lasting market demand. The Patek Philippe Seal is here to make the coming versions respect the heritage while they will be indisputably new.

 



Objects of desire

 

Obviously that's a positioning statement. Those looking for permanent change, what is fully respectable, may not find their objects of desire in the Patek Philippe range. Patek Philippe probably does not intend to please every one. But who does?

 



Simple gong

 

I should also address those who think that Patek Philippe didn't need to create a "seal" for that. I too think that it was not necessary to create a "seal" to do well, but I'm 100% sure that it was necessary to create a Patek Philippe Seal to clearly share with the public (and I don't think we are here exactly the public), with its potential or already customers the true significance of all that is embodied by the Patek Philippe Seal.

 



Cathedral gong

 

I also truly believe that nature and humans don't stand emptiness. The simple withdrawal of the Geneva Seal, no longer sufficient to express what had to be expressed, would have left a negative impression, had it not been replaced by a more stringent commitment!

 



Choices

 

Keeping the Geneva Seal was probably not a solution either as more and more brands are seemingly now respecting the Geneva seal requirements for the sake of it as a marketing tool, or as a way to try to compare itself to Patek Philippe on a ground that it too limited in itself to be a fair comparison criteria, even if the Geneva Seal requirements are quite respectable.

 



Choices again

 

So coming back to the opening point of the potential arrogance of such a private seal, I want to hope that this reading has convinced you that Patek Philippe is only trying to improve itself and stay at its best, and not just pretend!

 



A place to choose

 

I've always thought that a Seal in history was a commitment, a signature, and definitely not a simple quality control based on some limited requirements.

 



Available! I would have picked it as my favourite.

 

Let's the future come now. I've heard that it comes early, as soon as in the beginning of next month! Let us some time to see the promises in the light of day. smile

 



Take a rest

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Cheers

 

Dje

 

This message has been edited by Dje on 2009-10-25 09:38:44 This message has been edited by Dje on 2009-10-31 09:45:35


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Comments: view entire thread

 

A reputation is what others say about you, not what you say about yourself.

 
 By: mkvc : October 25th, 2009-09:38
I consider the new seal program to be in poor taste. However, if it makes people other than me open their wallets, it is a success. I particularly object to the accuracy standard embodied in the seal criteria. Average accuracy is a matter of luck and care... 

A seal is not a reputation!

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:15
Hi, I read your point but a seal is a commitment and a commitment is not a reputation. The reputation comes from the level of respect of the commitment! Regarding accuracy Patek Philippe's requiremetns are not limited to what I wrote but what I wrote is w... 

100% agree. Certification can only be external.

 
 By: ilikewatches : September 27th, 2011-07:08
I agree 100% with everything you say. ili

A seal with good intentions...

 
 By: patrick_y : October 25th, 2009-11:25
I'm convinced that the Patek Philippe Seal is a seal with good intentions that will further signify Patek Philippe as a leader in customer service. However, it does seem to step on the toes of the original Geneva Seal governing body and the others who uph... 

Wise thoughts Patrick

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:18
Wise thoughts Patrick, and thank you for your comments! I've long loved this pocket watch and seeing two of them on the same day was something! At least after such an experience I could (shortly) rest in the VIP room! Cheers Dje

Dje, that is what I call ...

 
 By: small-luxury-world : October 25th, 2009-11:35
a very well done post. For sure, worth to keep it on my HD. Thanks, for all your efforts! Some "sceneries" looked familiar to me and brought back nice memories Oliver

Good intentions are sealed to any PP watch

 
 By: amanico : October 25th, 2009-13:09
So, why does PP need a seal, being Geneva or Patek? That is the question which remains. I find the PP seal redundant with the claim of Excellence. Excellence, nor PP doesn't need a seal. So, besides this personal opinion, I want to congratulate you for th... 

I share your point of view but...

 
 By: foversta : October 25th, 2009-13:27
I think the point is not to convince us (I do agree with you: the name on the dial is enough) but to weaken the Geneva Seal. Well, that's my theory. Fr.Xavier

Interesting theory

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:22
I too believe that the Patek Philippe Seal is supposed by essence to surpass and improve on the Geneva Seal! Cheers Dje

Thank you Nicolas

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:21
Hi, Indeed that's your personal opinion, not mine! If they had named it "Patek Philippe quality chart" or "Patek Philippe commitments" or whatever...... would have that changed something! A seal replaces a seal! That's it! Cheers Dje

One must expect the unexpected...

 
 By: Aussie : October 25th, 2009-14:34
With competition in the market of highly complicated watches in the 6 figures, Patek must continue with new innovations, strong R&D, and superior brand recognition otherwise they cannot continue as a independent watch making company. I for one am thrilled... 

Many Thanks, but you haven't addressed one worry

 
 By: aaronm : October 25th, 2009-15:15
I appreciate the time you've put in to that article, especially the illustrations, but I still have one major concern, openness/auditability. The COSC, for all it's flaws, the Geneva Seal Org and the QF certs are all given by an organization outside the w... 

Jerome,thank you for a beautifully crafted article & photo..

 
 By: Topcat30093 : October 25th, 2009-18:41
And to all the members who have shown either agreement or have bought a constructive criticism to the table.

You're welcome! nt

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:34
nt

Sorry Aaron but I strongly disagree

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:34
Hi Aaron, Do you really think that the Geneva Seal control process is any better than what you describe as negative for the Patek Philippe Seal? If you've read my words and not just looked at the pictures you may have understood that the Patek Philippe Se... 

I'll not defend the GS

 
 By: aaronm : October 27th, 2009-15:07
But if Patek wants to present the PP seal as a marked improvement over the GS, and superior to the other alternate "seals" out there, it would be nice to know how it is superior. I'll admit that the finishing descriptions are more detailed than the other ... 

No problem

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-15:22
Hi Aaron, Patek Philippe doesn't want to present its seal as an improvement over the GS, and doesn't refer to other seals either. There are many many points in watchmaking that have no standard of reference, so for instance there is no definite way to dec... 

They may not say "this is to replace the GS"

 
 By: aaronm : October 27th, 2009-17:23
but it seemed to be a clear message in the adoption of the PP seal and the dropping of the GS. They could have easily made the PP seal incorporate the GS, but instead they simply stopped using the GS. I didn't hear them ever say "we are replacing/improvin... 

Of course

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-22:25
Of course Patek Philippe didn't drop the Geneva Seal to adopt lesser requirement ! So obviously if they choose to change it's certainly because they consider their Seal to be in some ways superior to the Geneva Seal. In fact whatever the Geneva Seal chang... 

Thanks Jerome...

 
 By: little501 : October 25th, 2009-20:54
What an excellent article for me to learn the PP Seal!

My pleasure! nt

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:35
nt

PP seal: A process & product seal vs Geneva seal: A Product seal

 
 By: fnk : October 26th, 2009-00:28
When I first read about the PP seal, I commented on this forum that it was fatally flawed, in that it was not an external evaluation. I later read the interview with Stern in the PP magazine & changed my mind. The new PP seal seem to primarily be a statem... 

Patek seal....Skeptical, from experience.

 
 By: Dave in Wales : October 27th, 2009-00:10
I've been retired now for nearly ten years. All my working life was spent as an Engineering designer, a draughtsman to most. When my drawing were prepared, they had to be 'checked' by, yes you guessed it, by a 'checker'. Often the checkers would be busy a...  

I agree

 
 By: vlkcheng : October 27th, 2009-05:04
It's all marketing hype.

PP seal: marketing or quality assurance

 
 By: fnk : October 27th, 2009-05:30
D in W said: How on earth can anyone give a seal of approval to themselves? e.g. I've done well today, think I'll give myself a 'D in W' seal......utter rubbish, it's meaningless. Let’s go to another field. I run a general ICU. Some studies have shown tha... 

Well said.

 
 By: KCLQMULKU : October 27th, 2009-05:41
It is impossible to objectively self-regulate. An example is in medicine where, before the Bolitho case (UK), doctors could in effect self-regulate themselves to the point of theoretically winning all negligence cases. This was through the precedent set b... 

Where is the Cartier Forum?

 
 By: dan1 : October 27th, 2009-07:28
You seem to be putting a lot of faith in the Geneva Seal. Maybe too much, to receive it One example of a watch must be submitted, then that same series can be made for 1 year or 40 years, only the one watch is checked. Dje said it right here "Keeping the ... 

Thank you! Did you klnow they have a "comite du poincon"

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:45
Hi, Patek Philippe has a "comite du poincon" that incorporates people from outside the company. patek.watchprosite.com Cheers Dje

That does clear things.

 
 By: KCLQMULKU : October 28th, 2009-09:06
Thank you Jerome! They do indeed state an independent body known as 'Comité du Poinçon' as verified under the 'Seal regulations' section. patek.com

Anybody who see the Patek Philippe Seal as unserious

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:40
Anybody who see the Patek Philippe Seal as unserious should IMO and with all due respect see the Geneva Seal as a mockery! I weight my words! Self control inside a company is possible. That's the basic notion of normalization and all quality controls are ... 

cartier and the geneva seal

 
 By: eric.vonschonberg : October 30th, 2009-23:09
Patek shouldn't have been so surprised to see Cartier get the Geneva seal. If you look at the Geneva seal requirements, they all pretty much relate to polishing and finishing. It's little wonder then that a jewelry company, Cartier, would be able to quali... 

Had Patek re-name this seal ... ??

 
 By: tic-toc : October 27th, 2009-08:14
MY question really is : Had Patek ( NOT) name the seal under this name, would the reaction from the general public be less harsh ??

Good question

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-14:48
Hi, That's a good question. I'm surprised by the allergic reactions to this Seal. Would it be because people realize (or don't want to) that the Geneva Seal is not so much of a proof of overall quality finally? Cheers Dje

On fairies, beads and mirrors...

 
 By: mendezj : October 27th, 2009-16:03
Gentlemen, aren't we all mature enough to know that the end purpose of these seals, bells and whistles is to improve the bottom line of the company? It amazes me that so many otherwise savvy and educated people believe in marketing hype as if it were a se... 

Sure but

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-22:45
Of course all companies have for purpose to improve their bottom line, but the difference relies on the way they choose to do it! The essence of this Seal may well be to forbid to do it at any price, but to do it respecting the family, company and watchma... 

Oh my...

 
 By: mendezj : October 28th, 2009-12:46
Talking about marketing hype.

What happens if Cartier produces a watch with the Patek seal?

 
 By: AnthonyTsai : October 27th, 2009-21:46
assuming, the Cartier watch passes all Patek Seal requirements. What will happen next? If watches from other brands are able to get Patek Seal certification, the only problem I have with this Seal is the name. Patek should have issued it some other name r... 

That will not happen

 
 By: Dje : October 27th, 2009-23:24
Hi Anthony, That will not happen as the Patek Philippe Seal is not open to watches from others makes ! So Cartier would have to create its Cartier Seal, if they are tempted! J Cheers Dje

Then what is the meaning?

 
 By: cisco : October 28th, 2009-07:12
They already "have to" produce the best watch possible It is already the politic of the Brand. So why? I agree with some points above. How can you call that a seal? A seal means independant and for everyone who one to get to a standard. Parmigiani Fleurie... 

No I don't think it is true in fact!

 
 By: Dje : October 28th, 2009-15:24
Hi Cisco, Sorry but I think you're just wrong about what a seal is. There's no notion of independant body in a seal. Nor does that signify that such a seal has to be opened to any other make! A seal means that the company or the body applying its seal gua... 

I was a bit bitter and I apologize for the words used

 
 By: cisco : October 28th, 2009-18:07
But I think you can find some justification inside my post. You think a seal doesn't mean independant, for me it does. Patek has to do the best watches. Not because of a seal, just because of the name. For me this name means more than any thing. Making a ... 

Thank you Cisco

 
 By: Dje : October 29th, 2009-01:58
Hi, no problem! i understand your posiiton and I understand that you're not at ease with communication, but all companies must communicate and watchmakers now live in a communication word so if you don't comunicate you're dead! The new customers for tomor... 

This has been a great exchange of views and

 
 By: whit : October 28th, 2009-08:28
it seems that with the launch of this new seal and all it brings (promises), I can only imagine what pressure it will bring to the QC department. After all, I would assume that there will be no problems with watches built to such strict standards. And, I ... 

Certainly! nt

 
 By: Dje : October 28th, 2009-15:27
nt

Going further though,

 
 By: whit : October 29th, 2009-07:31
I wonder about the person who has read all the wonderful things about the seal, goes out and buys a watch and has problems from the get-go. Is the seal a promise that this won't occur?

No

 
 By: Dje : October 29th, 2009-07:41
Hi, Whatever the quality is, quality problems can always happen, specially with mechanical watches! The Patek Philippe Seal is not a reliability seal. It is a commitment to do their best at all steps to avoid problems (among many other commitments). Certa... 

Why not?

 
 By: whit : October 29th, 2009-11:05
I would think that Patek has had an ongoing commitment to produce their watches to this level, so maybe I'm missing something here. I believe a seal, to the average customer, would imply reliability (performance) as well. You are absolutely right though, ... 

Yes Patek Phillipe has an ongoing commitment

 
 By: Dje : October 30th, 2009-04:16
Yes Patek Phillipe has an ongoing commitment to produce watches of a very high level of quality! Planes are produced to a high level of quality, still there are planes crashing! Yes the Seal implies reliability, but is not a promise of perfection, just of... 

I share your passion for Patek Philippe,

 
 By: whit : October 31st, 2009-05:37
and this has been a great exchange of different views from Patek Philippe owners, collectors, etc. around the globe. I can't speak of planes because I don't know the facts of why they crash, but I can speak about folks who have had issues with newly purch... 

I hope so

 
 By: Dje : November 2nd, 2009-01:54
Hi, Thank you for your comments. As I understand it the Seal is a commitment towards an overall quality. It does not necessarily changes much the way things are done right away. It is a basis to secure what is well done and then certainly improve what has... 

Thanks DJE

 
 By: Mostel : October 28th, 2009-21:36
nt This message has been edited by Mostel on 2009-10-28 21:40:39

My pleasure Mostel! nt

 
 By: Dje : October 29th, 2009-01:53
nt

Just some add'l thoughts

 
 By: eric_s : October 29th, 2009-03:55
Let me preface by saying I would not choose to buy a PP because of the PPS...(or GS for that matter). I would buy a Patek (or any other watch) for what I perceive to be the level of quality and design I am looking for. Having said that, if what PP is sett... 

My take!

 
 By: Dje : October 29th, 2009-07:37
Thank you for sharing your point of view! Your arguments are comprehensive seen from your side but seen form PP I don't think that would be the case….. This is not Patek Philippe's role to put a defy to other watchmakers or watchmaking companies, or... 

well, um...no.

 
 By: ThomasM : October 29th, 2009-20:56
"Isn't that what the Geneva Seal started out as??" The Geneva Seal started out as a way for Geneva brands to "discriminate" (in all the glorious senses of the term) for Geneva based brands and against non-Geneva based sub-contractors who were slowly encro... 

DJE...well presented...thank you for the photos...

 
 By: ocwatching : October 29th, 2009-12:18
and your passion for the brand really shows... Maybe this is just a newbie question, does this mean that only certain watches in the Patek line would get the PP seal? I may have missed that in reading about the seal from countless other articles. Its stil... 

My pleasure!

 
 By: Dje : October 30th, 2009-04:19
No all new Patek Philippe has supposed to get the Seal. If they don't meet the requirements they don't get out! J Yes the Seal is marketing in some way, but the content of the Seal is real work! Always hard to self police, sure, but it's still better than... 

The PP timing is not performed as COSC timing!!!

 
 By: AlexKutkovoy : October 30th, 2009-02:56
Dear Dje, For clearing situation with PP seal I should note that PP does not "include" COSC. The COSC method of certification is very well known and includes tests under various conditions. PP does (that was mentioned in PP press-releases) only simulation... 

Maybe

 
 By: Dje : October 30th, 2009-10:26
Hi, Maybe the PP tests are not the same as the COSC tests. And I'm glad they are not identical in fact. In fact I see the COSC tests as much theoretical as the PP chronometric tests. Indeed the COSC tests are done only on calibres. The Patek Philippe chro... 

skeptical at first

 
 By: CorruptedSanity : November 1st, 2009-02:53
But now neutral. If the new PS enforces higher quality and standards then I will accept it. I trust PP to provide a credible seal even if its it's own seal. Maybe tomorrow GP and JCL will attain the Patek Seal too and then compete with the Geneve Seal. Is... 

I want to stay optimistic and let some time to see

 
 By: Dje : November 2nd, 2009-01:56
Hi, I'm sure Patek Philippe would not do that for lower standards. That's pretty brave from them IMO, because they can't fail! Cheers Dje

Interesting post.....

 
 By: MiniCooper : May 9th, 2010-08:48
I missed this one... thanks cheers